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Poll Question: How interested are you in the proposed Direct3D 11 tutorials? |
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| I am interested, and may write my own 3D programs. |
   13 (76%) |
| I am interested, but am unlikely to use it myself. |
4 (23%) |
| I am not interested. |
0 (0%) |
| I don't understand the question. |
0 (0%) |
| I no longer use BBC BASIC for Windows. |
0 (0%) |
| Total votes: 17 |
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Author |
Topic: Direct3D 11 poll (Read 501 times) |
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rtr2
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Direct3D 11 poll
« Thread started on: Aug 1st, 2015, 09:11am » |
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Please be kind enough to respond to this poll so I can prioritise my work on the Direct3D 11 tutorials.
Richard.
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David Williams
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #1 on: Aug 2nd, 2015, 1:13pm » |
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As I write this, at least 7 BB4W users may write programs making use of Direct3D 11?
I'll believe it when I see it! 
AFAIK, only three BB4W users ever did anything remotely interesting with BB4W & Direct3D 8: Andy Roberts (who got the ball rolling for me with his Star Trek-themed demo -- remember that?), DDRM, and myself. Two of us are out pretty much off the scene now.
Also, AFAIK, the time and energy that Michael Hutton put into his Direct3D 9 library and the documentation and example programs he wrote to go with it all pretty much came to naught. I think I was the only one who used a portion of his D3D9 work (namely, the code for displaying graphics at full screen).
[Correction: Jeroen Groendaal also used MH's code for displaying his games at full screen resolution]
If Richard's efforts with the Direct3D 11 tutorials and library result in new BB4W programs getting written and released then great -- looking forward to seeing these efforts already, but personally I'm sceptical.
David.
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rtr2
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #2 on: Aug 2nd, 2015, 2:09pm » |
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on Aug 2nd, 2015, 1:13pm, David Williams wrote:| AFAIK, only three BB4W users ever did anything remotely interesting with BB4W & Direct3D 8 |
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I see. So PYRAMID.BBC, LIGHTING.BBC, TEAPOT.BBC, WORLD.BBC and BBCOWL.BBC, all written by me, are not "remotely interesting" (or am I not classed as a "BB4W user"?). Thanks a bunch. 
Quote:| Also, AFAIK, the time and energy that Michael Hutton put into his Direct3D 9 library and the documentation and example programs he wrote to go with it all pretty much came to naught. |
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I don't think they "came to naught" but they were difficult for anybody to use with confidence because of their reliance on files that are neither guaranteed to be installed on the PC nor can legally be redistributed. The result was that it was pot luck whether such programs would run or not - not exactly conducive to widespread adoption!
Also, it has been rather difficult for anybody to make use of his "library, documentation and example programs" after he deleted them a few years ago! I should perhaps ask whether you think the lack of take-up of GFXLIB has anything to do with you deleting that, too. 
The Direct3D 11 programs I have been working on should be guaranteed to run on any Windows 8.1 or Windows 10 PC (with appropriate graphics hardware), because they rely only on files that are installed as standard with Windows. Of course the fact that they won't run on Windows 7 or earlier is unfortunate, but there is no acceptable solution to the D3DX issue (post DirectX 8) on those versions.
But you clearly think I am wasting my time in translating the Microsoft tutorials to BB4W. Certainly it is a large task which has been taking up many hours a day of my time, as my wife will testify! I propose therefore to tidy up and publish what I have done so far, but not to spend any more time on it unless and until somebody proves you wrong.
Richard.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2015, 2:26pm by rtr2 » |
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David Williams
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #3 on: Aug 2nd, 2015, 2:26pm » |
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on Aug 2nd, 2015, 2:09pm, g4bau wrote:| I see. So PYRAMID.BBC, LIGHTING.BBC, TEAPOT.BBC, WORLD.BBC and BBCOWL.BBC, all written by me, are not "remotely interesting" (or am I not classed as a "BB4W user"?). Thanks a bunch. |
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They were great, especially the last two. But I was really thinking about BB4W users other than you, the author of BB4W.
on Aug 2nd, 2015, 2:09pm, g4bau wrote:But you clearly think I am wasting my time in translating the Microsoft tutorials to BB4W. Certainly it is a large task which has been taking up many hours a day of my time, as my wife will testify!
I propose therefore to tidy up and publish what I have done so far, but not to spend any more time on it unless and until somebody proves you wrong.
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Knock it off with the emotional blackmail gambit.
Let's just see if anyone does anything on the back of your latest labours. I sincerely hope you haven't wasted your time and energy.
David.
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Michael Hutton
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #4 on: Aug 2nd, 2015, 2:48pm » |
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I wish this DirectX11 tutorials all the best. I think it would be good to get up and let people see what BB4W can do, but I would be aware that it might not have much uptake. DirectX has a very shallow learning curve, and might put a lot of people off. I would encourage you to finish them. Yes, you might be disappointed at first but the 'advertising' side of this is great - DirectX11 compatible! - wow. Think commercial... it could attract a lot of users.
It's good to see RTR finally coming into the 21st century!  Despite many claims that he 'has no interest'.
Yes, x9 had some issues, especially the redistributable side of things, but we did manage to make 'Alien Eliminator', 'Vapiki' (and some others I think, I would have to check)...work with DirectX9 (but yes, they don't use the .dll). Despite us getting those games working RTR, you seemed quite negative of the achievements of amateur programmers! Please be aware we put a lot of time and effort in getting those things done. It does not hurt to acknowledge that. This does not take anything away from your own achievements. Try to be nice.
OT... with your next burst of energy could you update the IDE please (something like notepad++, as an example). It may attract some of the older, experienced users back.
Oh yes, and people did wipe their files because sometimes they *felt* (that's an emotion RTR) were treated with a little less respect than they deserved. And before you reply to that. Think twice before you press enter please. 'Measure twice, cut once' as we say in my business. Maybe you could put a little wedge under your Enter button. Or a little sticker 'happy face' emoticon.
Michael
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rtr2
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #5 on: Aug 2nd, 2015, 3:08pm » |
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on Aug 2nd, 2015, 2:26pm, David Williams wrote:| Knock it off with the emotional blackmail gambit. |
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I fail to see how that can be classed as "blackmail"; stopping where I've got to so far doesn't disadvantage anybody (in fact it will make something available more quickly). It's a purely pragmatic decision based on the amount of time it is taking (and the disruption to my other activities) balanced against the likelihood of anybody ever making use of the stuff I've not yet done. And really you can't have it both ways: on the one hand making it very clear that you think I am wasting my time, and on the other criticising me for trying to reduce that waste!
I actually agree with you to the extent that the poor take-up of D3DLIB and D3DX8BBC - which are quite capable of much more sophisticated applications than any attempted so far (check the CPU usage!) - means it is highly unlikely that anybody will choose to use Direct3D 11, which is much harder and which runs on fewer versions of Windows.
With what I've learnt in the last few days I could write a library with similar functionality to D3DLIB and D3D9LIB, using DirectX 11, but what would be the point? The functionality would be no greater, but it would run on far fewer machines. The only benefit you can gain from D3D11 is if you code at a lower level - closer to the native API - and that is really hard (not any harder than it is in C++, in fact a little easier, but hard nevertheless).
Richard.
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David Williams
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #6 on: Aug 2nd, 2015, 3:21pm » |
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For prospective users/tinkerers of Direct3D 11...
(All 7 - and counting - of them!)
I think the most popular (or one of the most popular) 3D modelling packages is the freeware 'Blender':
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)
I dabbled with it for a short while a few years ago, and wrote some code to load-in some object files created with the package (I can't remember what format they were - whether they were Blender's native format or 3DS or whatnot). Anyway, one thing I didn't do was to write code for simply loading in a complex and *textured* Blender-produced 3D object. I wish I had done this, but I knew it would be a big job (which may, ultimately, have proved too challenging for me). It's this kind of functionality that was missing from the library.
If someone writes a Direct3D 11 companion library (or includes with the existing one) code for simple loading of complete, textured Blender objects/models, then I imagine that would make the Direct3D 11 library much more attractive and useful (well, to me at any rate). It would take a lot of the hard work out of loading & displaying complex, textured 3D objects. Spheres, cuboids and pyramids are not complex.
Incidentally, I chose option #2 of the poll.
David.
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rtr2
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #7 on: Aug 2nd, 2015, 3:49pm » |
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on Aug 2nd, 2015, 2:48pm, Michael Hutton wrote:| I wish this DirectX11 tutorials all the best. I think it would be good to get up and let people see what BB4W can do |
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They are not going to show that: the tutorials go no further than displaying an animated, lit, texture-mapped cube, which is easy enough to do - and surpass - using DirectX8 and D3DLIB. The 'clever' stuff that Direct3D 11 can achieve - e.g. by programming in HLSL - is not covered in those tutorials at all.
Quote:| the 'advertising' side of this is great - DirectX11 compatible! - wow. Think commercial... it could attract a lot of users. |
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As user Torro has pointed out, it would be DirectX 12 that might have that effect. DX 11 is old hat (five years old at least) so most other BASIC dialects have probably supported it for ages.
Quote:| Yes, x9 had some issues, especially the redistributable side of things, but we did manage to make 'Alien Eliminator', 'Vapiki' (and some others I think, I would have to check)...work with DirectX9 |
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I thought they used DirectDraw (DDRAW.DLL) rather than Direct3D (D3D9.DLL). But I may be wrong because my memory is terrible!
Quote:| you seemed quite negative of the achievements of amateur programmers! |
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That has never been my intention. I suspect you are mis-reading my pointing out shortcomings, when I identify them, as a lack of appreciation for the efforts taken, which is not the case. But keeping quiet when I spot a problem is neither my nature nor helpful in the long term.
And any perception that I have not praised programs like Vapiki and Alien Eliminator is entirely false, as a search of the archives will prove. I will repeat it now: I think they are amazing and they surpass anything that I could either conceive or code.
Quote:| could you update the IDE please (something like notepad++, as an example). It may attract some of the older, experienced users back. |
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As I have announced here more than once, I have a replacement IDE - programmed in BBC BASIC - at a stage where it needs the attention of somebody who can tidy up the loose ends and add new functionality. It would be far more appropriate, and achieve far more in the long run, for somebody other than me to carry out this task.
As far as Notepad++ and Programmer's Notepad are concerned, most of the hard work is achieved (I believe) by calling the Scintilla editing control. You could quite straightforwardly replace the Rich Edit control used in the 'new' IDE with a Scintilla control. The reason I didn't do that is that both the existing IDE and the Rich Edit control support bi-directional text - which I think is important from an international perspective - but the Scintilla developers (when I last checked) have no plans to support it.
So I ask again, if somebody would like to take on the replacement IDE, coded almost entirely in pure BASIC, I can make available the source code at short notice. I would not wish to have any detailed involvement in its development, and the only condition I would want to impose is that it is kept Open Source and free.
The existing IDE, coded in C, is entirely unsuitable as the starting point for any enhancements. It was the first Windows program I ever wrote, way back in 2000, with only the Petzold book to guide me. It's poorly documented, poorly structured and written in highly non-portable C.
Quote:| Oh yes, and people did wipe their files because sometimes they *felt* (that's an emotion RTR) were treated with a little less respect than they deserved. |
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How do you think I feel when people try to sabotage BB4W by withdrawing permission for me to distribute their utility, or delete their libraries? I guess I am supposed to react to that in an entirely emotionless way; it ain't going to happen. 
Richard.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2015, 4:07pm by rtr2 » |
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David Williams
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #8 on: Aug 4th, 2015, 02:16am » |
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Perhaps if those who chose the first option of the poll ("I am interested, and may write my own 3D programs") could share with us what kind of programs they may be thinking of, or interested in, writing, I think that'd be quite interesting to know. A new 3D game project, for example, would pique my interest.
BTW, did anyone (DDRM ?) make use of the 'camera roll' functionality that Richard recently added to D3DLIB (and released as D3DLIBA)?
I think if I were to rediscover my interest in hobbyist programming (now that I'm bored with my Raspberry Pi), I'd have a crack at making a flight sim/'Chocks Away!' clone based on D3DLIBA. It would be nice if someone made use of the new camera roll functionality!
Trouble is, for me, it's the sheer tedium of creating & using 3D objects, especially complex, textured ones (like aircraft) as I mentioned earlier in this thread. I wouldn't mind delegating that task to someone else. 
David.
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Torro
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #9 on: Aug 4th, 2015, 08:36am » |
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Im being quoted so I better join in
Has anyone seen SDL https://www.libsdl.org/index.php ?
Here is a library of 3d model planes http://tf3dm.com/download-page.php?url=boeing-747-26638 so no excuse now
re Direct x 12 . It will require software to be written as a multi threaded . There is an example in the MS DX12 sample in C++
Ultimately BBC Basic Windows kernal should be made open sourced to encourage further development . There Ive said it. Its not just about any one person
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DDRM
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #10 on: Aug 4th, 2015, 09:21am » |
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Hi David,
Ah, chocks away! There's a blast from the past! I remember playing it in two player mode, with a broken collarbone, so whenever I moved more than my mouse hand the atmosphere went bluer than the sky!
Actually, apart from the fact that I am lazy, busy, and incompetent, that might work OK! I've been interested in making fractally-generated landscapes and flying round them using D3D, though it's all a bit clunky at the moment. With your games-making skills it might work well. If you managed the flight model, crash detection, etc, and I modelled the landscape and tried to show the plane's position in it, we might do OK.
That said, I'm not a star with either making or displaying textures, but I could work on it...
D
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DDRM
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #11 on: Aug 4th, 2015, 09:34am » |
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Having voted "yes I'm interested and I might use it for 3D modelling", I have to say the reading I've done about D3D11 suggests it's much more difficult than (and completely different from) D3D8 or 9, so I'd be inclined to stick with the latter.
I think once you cut through the layers of bindings etc at least the basic buffers etc remain the same, so it would probably be possible to upgrade to D3D 10 or above later, if one really wanted the mists rising over the lagoon in the early morning...
Best wishes,
D
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Michael Hutton
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #12 on: Aug 4th, 2015, 3:16pm » |
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I think overall that BB4W is not the right platform for DirectX11/12. Why? As alluded to earlier in this thread there are issues with BB4W being single threaded and I think that DirectX11 etc really is aimed at the multithreaded environment to show off it's true benefits (I have a 8 core, 16 thread computer, I never imagined that 10 years ago). It is complicated as well, and not for the faint hearted by any means. You need to learn yet another layer of programming the GPU with HLSL. Unless you are using Visual Studio I can tell you from personal experience that debugging HLSL effect files with absolutely no debug information is a tedious and enraging experience. Try, fail, try, fail, try, fail etc...... succeed, modify, fail etc....
Overall, I would like to see the tutorials up and going, I think it would be good for BB4W, but I am pessimistic (sorry) about the development options. I rather feel it would be better to stick with x9 (despite it current limitations) as we have already proved it can work. How well depends on a dedicated enthusiast to take it to the next level.
I remember I persevered with Directx9 only for my own education rather than any hope that it would be used widely.
Anyway, that's my, probably ill informed opinion.
All power to the elbow whoever takes this on.
Michael
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David Williams
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #13 on: Aug 7th, 2015, 08:21am » |
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We're now up to 12 who've chosen option #1 ("I am interested, and may write my own 3D programs.").
Can't wait to see this avalanche of 3D programs!
David.
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dfeugey
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Re: Direct3D 11 poll
« Reply #14 on: Aug 8th, 2015, 06:19am » |
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on Aug 7th, 2015, 08:21am, David Williams wrote:Can't wait to see this avalanche of 3D programs!
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"May write"
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