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Topic: Reinspired (Read 751 times) |
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admin
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Re: Reinspired
« Reply #3 on: Nov 18th, 2013, 9:04pm » |
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on Nov 18th, 2013, 6:29pm, Richey wrote:| There was a recent post on the BASIC Programming Forum on the best educational BASIC... |
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It's interesting that the chap modestly (!) promoting his BASIC as 'the best educational BASIC' says about it that "You can't use it for serious development" and "after some time it needs to be replaced with something more serious".
Although I would never argue that BBC BASIC can compete with mainstream languages like C++ or Python on their own terms, it is powerful enough to be used for "serious development", as I and many other people can testify.
Richard.
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kgoodyer
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Re: Reinspired
« Reply #4 on: Nov 18th, 2013, 10:05pm » |
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Richard,
I have been coding for all my life, and have to say I have missed a good easy to understand structured basic. I have two kids aged 11 and 13, and I have been trying to get them programming. The problem is setting up the environment, and trying to explain all the things you have to do before you can compile and execute your first bit of code. With BB4W you can just install it, execute it, write some code and hit F9 to test it. You get sensible error messages that an 11 year old can understand, and when it all works you can compile it to a stand alone exe.
I have a professional project on at the moment, and as a challenge I am going to try using BB4W. Just getting my head round setting up prototypes for windows API calls, but its been a good first day.
At the same time I have just offered my kids £10 each extra pocket money if they can complete the KS3 work book at http://www.coinlea.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/KS3-Programming-Workbook-BB4Wv2.pdf
It frustrates me that they both have new laptops, and they only get used for games.
Keith
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Richey
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Re: Reinspired
« Reply #5 on: Nov 18th, 2013, 11:29pm » |
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Quote:Although I would never argue that BBC BASIC can compete with mainstream languages like C++ or Python on their own terms, it is powerful enough to be used for "serious development", as I and many other people can testify.
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and BBC BASIC for Windows also has the added advantage of being much more accessible than either of those two other languages in my humble opinion.
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hitsware
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Re: Reinspired
« Reply #6 on: Nov 19th, 2013, 7:23pm » |
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on Nov 18th, 2013, 11:29pm, Richey wrote:and BBC BASIC for Windows also has the added advantage of being much more accessible than either of those two other languages in my humble opinion.
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It surprised me when the Raspberry Pi came out set up for Linux rather than some form of Basic. However on reflection, Basic may be (although not for you or I) too mundane for today's young people who are brought up in a much more computation intensive world.
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admin
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Re: Reinspired
« Reply #7 on: Nov 19th, 2013, 9:42pm » |
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on Nov 19th, 2013, 7:23pm, hitsware wrote:| It surprised me when the Raspberry Pi came out set up for Linux rather than some form of Basic. |
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Firstly, Linux is an Operating System (c.f. Windows) and BASIC is a Language (c.f. Python), so that's a rather confusing statement. Perhaps you are too young to recall that the BBC Micro was the first home computer to make a clear distinction between the OS (in a 16K ROM from &C000 to &FFFF) and the language (in a 16K ROM from &8000 to &BFFF).
Secondly, the Raspberry Pi doesn't come "set up for Linux", normally it doesn't come with any Operating System at all! You have a choice of what OS to install: the main options being Linux and RISC OS. If choose the latter option BBC BASIC is included as standard.
If you choose to install Linux, which is the more popular option, I believe Brandy (an Open Source version of BBC BASIC) is available for that platform.
Quote:| Basic may be too mundane for today's young people |
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How do you square that with OCR recommending it as one of the languages to teach in UK schools? This book has an entire chapter in which all the code examples are written in BBC BASIC for Windows:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/OCR-Computing-GCSE-Students-Book/dp/1444177796#_
Richard.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2013, 9:49pm by admin » |
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hitsware
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Re: Reinspired
« Reply #8 on: Nov 19th, 2013, 11:55pm » |
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on Nov 19th, 2013, 9:42pm, Richard Russell wrote:Firstly, Linux is an Operating System (c.f. Windows) and BASIC is a Language (c.f. Python), so that's a rather confusing statement. Perhaps you are too young to recall that the BBC Micro was the first home computer to make a clear distinction between the OS (in a 16K ROM from &C000 to &FFFF) and the language (in a 16K ROM from &8000 to &BFFF).
Secondly, the Raspberry Pi doesn't come "set up for Linux", normally it doesn't come with any Operating System at all! You have a choice of what OS to install: the main options being Linux and RISC OS. If choose the latter option BBC BASIC is included as standard.
If you choose to install Linux, which is the more popular option, I believe Brandy (an Open Source version of BBC BASIC) is available for that platform.
How do you square that with OCR recommending it as one of the languages to teach in UK schools? This book has an entire chapter in which all the code examples are written in BBC BASIC for Windows:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/OCR-Computing-GCSE-Students-Book/dp/1444177796#_
Richard.
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You are oh-so right !
I'm not too young, but perhaps too old.
(And in the wrong country)
My first system was a Commodore Vic-20 which had Basic on ROM which it booted to immediately.
Perhaps I never escaped that paradyme (though a false conception (language as OS))
Anyways it was food for thought seeing that the normal PI introduction to programming was Python rather than some form of Basic.
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| « Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2013, 12:01am by hitsware » |
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Richey
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Re: Reinspired
« Reply #9 on: Dec 1st, 2013, 12:37am » |
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Quote:It's interesting that the chap modestly (!) promoting his BASIC as 'the best educational BASIC' says about it that "You can't use it for serious development" and "after some time it needs to be replaced with something more serious".
Although I would never argue that BBC BASIC can compete with mainstream languages like C++ or Python on their own terms, it is powerful enough to be used for "serious development", as I and many other people can testify.
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Just noticed that the BASIC-256 site provides a link to BB4W...
presumably pointing to BB4W as a language suitable to progress to after mastering BASIC-256...
http://www.basic256.org/basiclinks
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| « Last Edit: Dec 1st, 2013, 12:38am by Richey » |
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JGHarston
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Re: Reinspired
« Reply #10 on: Dec 10th, 2013, 4:23pm » |
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on Nov 19th, 2013, 11:55pm, hitsware wrote:My first system was a Commodore Vic-20 which had Basic on ROM which it booted to immediately.
Perhaps I never escaped that paradyme (though a false conception (language as OS)) |
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The Vic-20, like all the Commodore machines, certainly has the language/foreground application completely seperate from the operating system (Kernal (sic) in Commodore's terminology). You just call the Kernal entry block at &FFxx to, eg save a file, read a keypress, print to screen, etc., regardless of whether the caller was BASIC, a word processor, FORTH, a game, etc. It made porting 6502 BBC BASIC to the C64 extremely simple.
It's machines like the Spectrum and the Apple II where you had to trawl through a ROM disassembly to work out how to do something a simple a read a key. Most non-BASIC programs had to build bits of BASIC in order to access the machine's functions, and extensions had to patch into the BASIC in order for programs to access their functionality.
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